Description
Many developers, including myself, deal with mental health issues, yet mental health in the developer community is often overlooked, hidden, or swept under the rug. Too many of us suffer in silence and end up hurting our professional and personal relationships, or even worse, ourselves.
What can be done to help de-stigmatize mental health issues? How can we, as a community, band together to help those of us with mental health issues feel more welcome in tech?
Together, we can work to Erase the Stigma associated with mental illness.
J.D. Flynn
Lead Software Engineer @ EPAM
everybody welcome this is a recent
stigma about mental illness in tech and
I feel like everybody's sitting over on
that side so gonna rotate so I can see
everybody I'm JD Flynn I'm a Drupal
developer karaoke enthusiast and there's
going to be karaoke tonight so yes so
yeah I think we're heading over to a
local place you can find me on twitter
@jj done stuff online drupal.org is
Norfolk is on all the slack says door in
case you forgot where you are this in
bid camp Chicago so welcome if you're
going to tweet about this use mid camp
and use hashtag as me as well has
anybody heard about me
awesome so I'll talk about that a little
bit so who is this guy I have been a
Drupal of PHP developer for about six
years I've been doing HTML since the 90s
I had the Geocities angel fire all that
stuff I also did some basic programming
like in the back of three to one contact
they used to the magazine they used to
send printed out programs that you could
copy line for line so that was how I
learned to debug and also am a camp
organizer so
this this is MIT can also organized the
Chicago Drupal meetup or Drupal Chicago
Meetup and before I got into this I was
a paramedic firefighter and EMT for
about ten years
also I've got mental illness is plural
so I went to practices met a doctor I'm
not a mental health professional I'm not
here to give medical advice I am just
somebody with mental illnesses who's had
difficulties in the workplace
because of that and I was in denial for
a very long time so I'm basically just
here to tell my story and offer up some
resources there are couple reasons I
like doing this talk and if there is one
sentence for what I want to accomplish
is to get people talking about mental
illness in a positive way or at least in
an open conversation and that's because
people don't want to talk about it it's
usually a taboo subject when it's
brought up people back away from the
conversation people don't want anything
to do with it and you know part of the
goal for me is erasing that stigma as
the title of this session is called I
would like to get the conversation going
yes there are some resources some
statistics some of my personal and
professional experiences both as a
paramedic and as a developer like I said
I was a paramedic for ten years EMT
firefighter before that and I've seen
firsthand on both sides of things what
untreated mental illness can do both as
a caregiver and as a patient
also a burden and mental disorders is
the largest as of 2008 in North America
no like I said some facts some
statistics according to the World Health
Organization mental illness represents
the biggest economic burden of any
health issue in the world
costing 2.5 trillion dollars in 2010 and
is projected to cost 6 trillion dollars
by 2030 with two-thirds of these caustic
tribute to disability and to loss of
work of the 450 million people worldwide
who suffer from mental health conditions
uh the majority sixty percent of people
did not receive any form of care with
ninety percent in developing countries
receiving no form of care at all but
above else it needs to be talked about
stigma needs to be erased and the
projector needs to work yeah
there's something that needs to be
plugged in it's still recording it yeah
as long as this recording should be good
uh a conversation needs to be started
and all of you that are here you're
taking the right steps towards turning
conversation so thank you all for coming
I really appreciate it now why should
this be important to you approximately
experience mental illness in a given
year that's according to Nami org and
we're gonna find out later that number
is much much higher in the tech
community why is it important to me as I
mentioned I have mental illness for a
very very long time I suffered in
silence I was in denial I was afraid
that admitting I had mental illness
would make it real and I've also been
the victim of the stigma I thought
mental illness wouldn't met someone was
just not right I didn't want to be not
right so I I had the wrong view of
things it was pure ignorance also you
know I had the feeling that I was in
perfect health until I went to a doctor
and he told me otherwise yeah no
diagnosis until somebody diagnoses here
oh I was worried that if I told people
they treat me differently because I had
seen that happen to other people and I
had actually been guilty of doing that
to other people and I was worried about
social distancing have you any of you
heard the term of social distancing
[Music]
okay so it's when people feel that
individual with mental illness just by
having the label of having mental
illness is dangerous and it results in
fear and increased social distance and
leads to anxiety and isolation in the
individual with mental illness so it's
kind of a you know suppli filling
prophecy dark circle you know downward
spiral however you want to put it and
there's something that I often get to
tell myself I'm not weak I'm sick it's
not a character flaw it's an illness
it's part of me so you're going to learn
a lot about me so I want to learn a
little bit about all of you how many of
you are developers here learned
development site builders there is
anything related to Drupal quite a few
okay any of you project managers owners
project owners account managers and
we're holding that title okay any of you
in HR
okay good III tend to give HR hard time
but I understand they have our job and
that they do have rules and laws that
they have to follow are any of you an
upper management
managers presidents CEOs company owners
something like that I have okay
all right so now that I learned about
you it's time to learn a little more
about me it's time to get uncomfortably
personal I have major depression which
is marked by a depressed mood most of
the day particularly in the morning lots
of interest and normal activities and
relationships and symptoms are present
every day for at least two weeks I also
have anxiety disorder which is a mental
health or disorder characterized by
feelings of worry anxiety or fear that
are strong enough to interfere with
one's daily activities I also have PTSD
it's a disorder characterized by failure
to recover after experiencing or
witnessing a terrifying event and for
those of you who don't know that the
acronym is post-traumatic stress
disorder ah you know experiencing stuff
both as a paramedic firefighter
childhood stuff and I didn't want to
admit that it affected me in till I got
therapy and a psychologist gave me a
very very good analogy that really made
me think so if you think about a
computer we've got the RAM and we've got
the hard drive just like your brain has
short-term memory long-term memory so
when you want something right there
right quick you want it in the short in
the the RAM you want it easily
accessible quick back and forth and
that's where PTSD the traumatic events
get stuck in your short-term memory so
little things can remind you of it and
since it's right there really quick
access you you can relive it very easily
because it's right on the edge of being
open instead of being converted to long
term memory and to the hard drive work
takes a little bit more time to get into
and it's you have to go through extra
steps to actually remember it
[Music]
does that make sense or did it just
click with me because I'm weird okay so
so what changed
I finally accept that something was
wrong I saw other people living happy
lives and not going through the same
difficulties I had and I didn't start
noticing that people didn't get as angry
ISM easily as I did like before I
probably would have thrown something at
the projector by now ah people weren't
affected by everyday things like I was
and I finally had an epiphany that maybe
everyone else wasn't the issue maybe
everything else wasn't the issue maybe
it was me and something that reminded me
of is if you go everywhere everywhere
you step smells like dog crap maybe you
should check your own shoes though for a
lot of people including myself this was
the hardest part I didn't want to accept
something's wrong because I'm a perfect
person nothing's wrong with you but I I
finally accepted it so then I got
treatment I take medication
I believe in better living through
chemistry I'm a big fan of it I see a
therapist that helps a lot even just
going and venting to a stranger is just
extremely cathartic just
to get it out there in the world I also
find outlets I'm in a couple community
bands I play Barry sax and one of them I
play French horn in another and I play
alto sax in another so that's probably
the geekiest thing you're going to hear
at a software conference they have that
I'm active in the community through
doing stuff like this organizing event
camp speaking at the meetups trying to
do things locally in my town that teach
development whatever to kind of get out
there and talk to people and I also
start the conversation I do things like
this
I talk to people I open up you know
people ask me questions I'm not afraid
to say yeah that's me oh you know people
don't necessarily need to know the
details of why I have what I have like I
said I've got PTSD but you don't need to
know why I'm not ashamed that I have it
I mean it's part of me I I don't mind
mentioning in social situations but I
don't go into details if under other
people are uncomfortable about it that's
their problem
and I don't mind talking up in the
events so if you have questions any time
during this go ahead raise your hand
just shout him out if you want to talk
to me afterwards go ahead come up to me
I don't mind so what was life like
before I sought treatment difficult I
was paranoid about every little thing
and I didn't see other people dealing
with things the same way ah
and like I said I was guilty of the
stigma before I was afraid to see a
therapist because I thought only crazy
people sell therapists and I admit now
that I was very ignorant I've grown from
that obviously I would have very very
deep valleys where I couldn't function
him for days on end and barely get out
of bed I often felt useless I felt that
I was messing up everything I touch I
couldn't focus on anything and that
resulted in just a lot of fear of losing
my job because I couldn't focus because
there I was depressed because there was
reduced output because I was afraid it's
going to lose my job because I couldn't
focus and it was just you know kept
circling around and around and I spent a
lot of time just trying to figure out
what was wrong with me
like I said I was constantly afraid a
crippling fear of everyday things social
situations were paralyzing I would not
do this - three years ago there's no way
I would be standing here two or three
years ago when I was in college
I would drive I went to Community
College kind of later in life like I
said I had different career and I
changed completely and when I went back
I would occasionally go to in in-person
classes I preferred online but some
things just easier a learning person
there would be times where I would sit
in my car in the parking lot for 15
minutes and find any excuse not to go
just you know I have a spot on my jeans
yeah might as well go home that worth it
I would cancel plans a lot uh oh yeah Oh
quite a few friends but I would never go
do anything because I'd always cancel so
that left me feeling alone and I made
myself alone oh I would have
self-imposed isolation I'd be in crowded
areas and you do everything I could to
have people leave me alone
Oh one example I commute in by train to
Chicago from Indiana and it's a pretty
busy train rush-hour I'm sure that
anybody who's ridden a train knows what
rush-hour trains can be like but I can
get on the train pretty early in the
community so there's not a lot of people
and I always have that they I hope
nobody sits next to me by the time we
get to the station and on those
wonderful days where nobody sits next to
me I start wondering what's wrong with
me why isn't anybody sitting next to me
I start smelling my breath and start you
know looking for reflective surfaces to
see if I have a booger hanging out just
any reason so that's kind of how my mind
works
still I was angry I was not a happy
person and people around me noticed that
anything could set me off I would get
really really mad at the smallest thing
and you know a mix of a high-stress job
being on the ambulance and untreated
anxiety depression were not a good
combination
and like many many people and public
service I was way too proud to admit
that something's wrong I mean nothing
can be wrong with me
I'm I'm in the public service I'm
somebody that people should be looking
up to you is the mentality that a lot of
people had but I did not but I was
definitely too proud to admit something
is wrong
I was also extremely misunderstood
people often thought that I was angry
when I was really just terrified or
trying not to screw up ah example of
that I have a couple of lifelong friends
who you know I I get to see them once
every five years and it was like I saw
them yesterday just the conversations
that we had and one of them invited me
to stand up in his wedding which was
like the ultimate honor for me as I had
known him literally since we were three
years old in preschool and just continue
that friendship and I didn't want to
mess things up for him so I just wanted
to not be the center of attention and
make sure all eyes were on them so I
would sit at the front table it's just
barely even eating my dinner and one
person came up to me and said you look
like you might kill everyone in this
room because I was just paralyzed with
fear and that by no means I was not
angry I was just like please don't let
me screw up his day so a lot of
misunderstood and people mistake being
basically crapping my pants or being
angry which I wasn't some of the time so
how has treatment affected me well I'm
not ashamed of Who I am
like I've said a couple times I want to
hide in shame because of my conditions
and that realize it's just a part of me
I'm not too proud to admit that I need
help anymore the valleys are not as deep
I still still have bad days everybody
has bad days there I'm not saying
they're not around
but there must less frequent and much
more shallow and I could recover a lot
quicker my anxiety has gone down but I
do still occasionally get panic attacks
but they're not nearly as bad as they
used to be since getting on medication
and seeing a therapist I've become more
comfortable in social situation I'm
still overall generally introverted but
I I'm not afraid of doing normal things
they're there like I said the the school
example the lizard brain took over and
said get out of here they're there for
some reason it gave me the same response
as if I was being chased by a beer bear
walking into that bear chased by no that
would have a completely different
response if yeah
oh yeah just the same response if I were
being the fight-or-flight mechanism was
very strong and just hyperactive but
fortunately now I realize I'm not alone
and we're not alone it's getting
diagnosed and erasing the stigma for
myself and being able to see things kind
of in a whole new light with a new
perspective I realized that a lot of my
fear in addition to the anxiety was also
adding on to the anxiety was that people
I was afraid of the way that people
might view me or that people did view me
and I don't feel any of way that more I
don't feel that way anymore because
organizations like Azmi that stands for
open open sourcing mental illness Azmi
help torgus their website it's run by
Edie Fleur in Lafayette Indiana and it's
a worldwide organization they're great
they do wonderful things check them out
so I've been talking a lot about my own
mental illnesses but what exactly is
mental illness
the Mayo Clinic defines it as a wide
range of mental health conditions or
disorders that affect your mood thinking
and behavior
examples include depression anxiety
schizophrenia eating disorders and
addictive behaviors but why tech
specifically it's always been suspected
that there was a higher incidence is
mental illness in the tech community but
there was a really research until Azmi
came along and decided to do the
research there were sites like def
breast excuse me which is now part of
the Osby forums it's been absorbed into
that and word of mouth we're all that we
had to go on and some study has shown
that there's been an increased incidence
of mental illness specifically anxiety
depression and people with above-average
IQs we're developers we work in tech you
got to be a certain type of person to do
that
the study suggests the intelligent
people with hyper brains are more
reactive to environmental stimulus and
that may predispose them to certain
psychological disorders as well as
physiological conditions involving
elevated sensory and altered immune and
inflammatory responses there's also
imposter syndrome who's heard of that
it's a feeling that you don't deserve to
be doing what you're doing and I suffer
from it like all the time I don't know
why you guys are here you people are
here listening to me talk I keep
submitting talks and people keep saying
yeah well let this guy do this I don't
know why I don't understand it but thank
you I do appreciate that um I so I I
have a an inability to take compliments
as part of that because I don't deserve
compliments I don't deserve to have the
job I have I don't deserve you know a
lot of stuff and I have a very hard time
convincing myself of that and I found
just through you know a little bit of
personal research and just talking to
other people it it's running rampant in
the tech community
I am a admin on a very large front-end
developer slack and 14,000 members and I
started a mental health channel just to
hey let's make a little bit of a safe
place fitness safe space if you want to
rant if you need to talk to people we're
all here we're all in this together and
as soon as I pulled the trigger on that
it was a thousand of those people
jumping in and now that's become one of
the more active channels and one of
just the hot theme of most of the
conversations are impostor syndrome how
do you deal with this how what do you do
on interviews I don't feel like I should
be talking to these people and it's just
wonderful to see that you're not alone
in this and to be able to create that
outlet for other people okay again I've
been talking about myself if I've got
some more questions for you has anybody
here taking a sick day
has anybody been afraid to call off for
an injury or infection like the flu
you've been afraid to call out for those
you broke your leg and didn't want to go
in no I was actually feel like I had
some type of abscess or something of my
stomach so I went in to the hospital the
guy checked in and I found out that my
bladder infection
my bladders full so you didn't want to
call for that I felt like I felt like I
would be laying the team down
okay if I told them I have to go because
I feel it like something is wrong with
me like they wouldn't allow me what they
don't think we're bad to me in said oh
yeah okay that makes sense yeah hey does
anybody told somebody with glasses or
contacts to just try looking harder
no okay ever told somebody in a
wheelchair just get over it and walk
never told somebody with diabetes high
blood pressure her condition
stop taking your medicine little
pressure I'll do it well we've got
images like this
or this
or my personal favorite if you can't
read the small text you don't need any
depressants if you lift but to me they
all say the same thing it's that you're
not trying hard enough
and I can vouch for the effects of
medication by standing right here in
front of a bunch of people I don't know
so I'm not going to say there are a few
side effects I drink water like crazy
and right now my mouth is extremely dry
so excuse me but the the benefits
outweigh the side-effects
we've got our own memes you can't make
your own neurotransmitter there's
store-bought is fine
so what if people with physical health
problems were treated the way people
with mental health problems let's see if
we got sound
and I was like yeah right
that plane there oh that's right sorry
right into this before
[Music]
like
[Music]
[Music]
we're trying to
Yeah right man all complain take you're
not even trying to walk have you ever
tried not happy by migrants chile vina
[Music]
some people have it way worse than you
you chill out sorry
guess you're not going out this time
[Music]
really think I sprained at this time I
gotta go see my physical therapist yeah
can you hold on one second honestly your
attitude another insulin yeah I kind of
have to have you ever thought about
dropping the pharmaceuticals
I mean this
[Music]
[Music]
so
[Music]
so how do we erase the stigma
well for one we need to be stronger than
fear we can start the conversation which
is what we're doing right here today we
can listen if somebody trusts you enough
to talk about their mental health listen
trust me that that does tremendous
things let people know that they matter
it and I could say it somebody with
mental illness with the disability of
hearing an affirmation can do amazing
things when I was on the ambulance I
would do a lot of transfers and a lot of
transportation of people with a mental
health crisis and a lot of times ah just
talking to them listening all the things
I'm saying would bring them down from
you know I'm going to hurt everybody or
I'm going to hurt myself and it would at
least get them to a manageable position
to where they would talk and tell you
where their problems and maybe get to
the root of it so that you could give a
better report off to the the nurse
without them just saying oh it's just
another crazy coming in put them in the
lockdown room which I experienced seeing
quite a bit and looking back it was
unfortunate and I I feel horrible for
for having the attitude towards people
but the best I can do now is be more
compassionate and going forward if you
do have mental illness don't be a shame
you're not damaged you have a disease
shouldn't be ashamed of having a heart
condition uh try to be respectful you
can't always tell who has a disability
so so try to be respectful of what you
say or how you portray diseases and if
you do feel that you have mental illness
get treatment don't be too proud don't
be like me get Freeman
this is all good for personal stuff of
what about in the workplace well let's
see what data says
like I said Azmi did attack survey
they're doing a tech survey every year
every couple of years the most recent
ones that I had available when I wrote
this for 2016 I think the data is still
being tabulated from the last one we had
approximately 1,500 responses it was
made available to several different
communities excuse me to us residents
and all responses are self-reported
would you bring up a potential while
health issue with a potential employer
at an interview these are separated
mental physical physical about a quarter
the people said yes mental only 7% twice
as many say no almost twice as may say
no though you can see this 36 verses 68
[Music]
and does your employee provide resources
to learn more about mental health issues
and how to seek help ah then this
doesn't include insurance coverage it's
pretty evenly distributed thirty three
thirty thirty-seven but only thirty
percent can say with any certainty that
they do know there are resources do you
feel that being identified as a person
with mental health issues would hurt
your career
only 12% say no it hasn't or no it has
no no I don't think it would or no it
has not but the majority say yes and yes
I think your Boyd this is something that
I worry about every time I give this
talk but it's kind of freeing knowing
that I have all my cards on the table
and I've had to to potential employers
who turn into employers who have seen
this talk so you know that gives me a
very very high level of respect for them
knowing who I am what I have and still
saying yeah come on board now do you
think that discussing a health issue
with your employer would have negative
consequences we divided this up in the
physical or mental only four percent
said yes for physical 23 said yes for
mental that's over five times more
people think there would definitely be
negative consequences
now remember when I said that the
incidence of mental health issues are
higher in the deaf community in the tech
community overall average is about 20
percent
do you have you been diagnosed with a
mental health condition fifty fifty
fifty percent of people who answered
this fifteen hundred responses said that
they have a mental health issue now as a
had some form of mental illness
so there there is definitely something
going on in the tech community and then
I think that being able to talk about it
make all of our lives a little bit
easier and all these charts lead me to
one conclusion and that is we are afraid
to talk about mental illness and why are
we afraid the stigma there's a stigma
about mental illness and we we as a
world need to get past it if we're
afraid that being honest will have
negative consequences
it means suffering in silence we're
afraid co-workers might change their
opinions of us worry is something with
the anxiety ring what other people think
can drive you mad and it could pause
that downward spiral where your anxiety
goes up you can't focus you can't work
worried about what people are thinking
because you're not about putting
anything and some hormones go straight
to the worst-case scenario so at a
previous job had a 90-day probationary
period anywhere in that 90 days you
could say I'm out they can say get out
on the 89th day of that I got a message
from my boss saying we need to talk so
immediately I looked at the calendar
it's 89 days oh crap I need a circle and
on my resume senator mouth no he's just
checking to see how everything was going
Oh a similar scenario where I just
started a job and my email had worked
and then the password stopped working
because they changed some things I
immediately thought maybe I'm just
getting Milton and they're gonna keep
seeing how much work I do before telling
me that I have to leave so that's kind
of a binary mind it's either best case
worst case we're all so afraid that we
might get sent to the HR department ah
I I did tell an employee before I
started doing this talk I did tell an
employer after coming up or dealing with
a lot of internal struggle to go and
tell somebody that I work with on a
daily basis hey I have an issue I need
to take a little bit of time off to just
reset and as soon as I told them that I
hung up with my boss and got a call no
more than five minutes later from HRSA
We Need to Talk
oh how many of you know your HR
department intimately that you feel very
very you're lucky yeah okay okay yeah I
give her name but I dealt with her when
I got hired and here we were a year and
a half later hey so you got something to
tell me and you know it took enough
somebody they dealt with on a daily
basis and I have to talk to somebody
that I haven't talked to in 18 months so
you might as well be dealing with a
stranger
no see reasonably what you do when she
do talk no no I'll get to that a little
bit later so but why should a workplace
care I if I remember we don't have
anybody in the higher echelon of
management here but ignorant skills
productivity and by that I mean not
knowing how to handle somebody with
mental illness can lead to the person
with mental illness not being able to do
the best they can
I mean how many lost hours just
personally tried to build up that
courage to go and talk to my my boss
sitting at my computer the day maybe now
maybe now know that that was at least
eight to 12 hours of me just dealing
with it and then the two days I needed
to take to recuperate after finally
going and saying hey I need to reset so
if I would have felt comfortable enough
or if they would have known how to
handle it if I would have known
the options were available and I could
just say hey I need a little bit of time
everything will be good you know there's
reduced productivity kills the bottom
line so those were 12 hours they are
paying for me that I wasn't doing
anything for and it goes both ways I
mean I would have stretches where I
didn't accomplish anything
so I was also you know telling the
bottom line by not doing anything
because I didn't want to talk but they
also didn't know how to deal with me
once I did get to that point it lead to
job insecurity because I'd always worry
about it
management didn't know how to handle it
when I went to my manager and they
immediately went to HR and HR didn't
want to hear about it the exact words
that were said to me were all you had to
say is you have a disability I don't
want to know what it is so they what
what can we do to accommodate you but
don't tell us what you have so and I'm
sure if I was said more days off that
may not have health so what we can do is
by ignorance with information ah what I
had my exit interview for that job I
mentioned that Azmi has some handbooks
they have three handbooks for a
workplace for or for HR and workplace
for employees and just a general
guideline book I'm not trying to sell
anything but they are drm-free they're
ten bucks for the set of three and they
are pretty awesome
you can find them at bitly asthma books
like I said there are three hand and
print out the PDFs or just send PDFs
your HR department anonymously if you
want to we're fortunate because we work
in open source and we realize that the
community is a greatest resource so
events like this oh it going back to
that survey 50% of respondents claimed
mental illness diagnosis half what does
that mean again we're not alone we are
more than user names and events like
this the in-person events really help us
remember that granted some people may
refer to others by their user names but
we're people we're not ones and zeros
we're here actually interacting we're
we're all going to do karaoke after this
right so we're we're doing buffs
downstairs we're doing you know just
this
and for those of us with mental illness
we got to remember we're not damaged
we're sick with a little work we can
raise a stigma and that was almost
perfect timing
okay oh yeah we can erase a stigma
I've got some resources like I've
mentioned osmate quite a few times as me
help that or check it out if you want to
become active I will give you any
information I can about them if you're
looking for a therapist there's this
nice number 1-800 therapists I mention
that Nami a couple times National
Association on mental illness and if you
or somebody who knows in prices there's
a suicide lifeline right and I want to
thank all of you for listening being
here I really really appreciate it do
any of you have questions anything might
be able answer anything you want to say
is there anything that you did to coat
that were sort of harder to get out of a
certain place that maybe
I found that I had to eventually open
myself up and I like I said it was
self-imposed isolation that I didn't
really know how to get out of until I
get to a point where it wasn't really
coping it was and it was a quite you
know hitting rock bottom but it was
getting close to where nobody around me
is feeling the same way I need to do
something about this so I wish that I
did have coping method mechanisms I'm
sure that there are resources out there
and thank you for asking that because
now I'm going to look them up for the
next time I do this but personally I
mean a lot of people say practice
mindfulness if you have the time to do
that
I know that drawing or writing down your
thoughts and getting them out of your
head might help and even if you know in
programming we have the rubber duckie
technique every rubber duckie and just
say what you're thinking and maybe it
might tell you back hey there's another
way to to deal with this so I wish that
I had an answer for that but
unfortunately I just got to a point
where I said oh I need help
[Music]
I think you had a question over there
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so we we put out the link to many many
communities like I said I'm a member of
that pretty large slack team and so I
put out the link to them and say hey
anybody in the u.s. please please fill
us out it was kind of just opening it up
to anybody who listen so I know that the
results like that 50/50 might be a
little bit skewed towards people who are
inclined to answer those but still even
if you know it's it's huge just a little
bit that's still much higher than the
admit it I'm the first one to say I was
too proud
you know I can get you one I don't know
it off the top of my head
it's a front-end developer slack and
it's worldwide and we're trying to get
rid of some of them because it's
worldwide and it's open to everybody we
we have 15,000 members and it I did a
check only about 2000 of them are active
and we need to just clear it out so the
number looks good until you look behind
the scenes
anybody else I just want to thank you
for doing the presentation I I am
interested in this topic because my
brother has bipolar disorder
his first experience these symptoms and
tell me the terms of realizing he wants
her denial and I think the stigma
created helps that may not be the only
thing that creates that's one of the
reasons and I remember when he was
dealing with fire so I lived with him
for a while to try to help but some
coping issues he was having and which
were not this one they had a story about
this was American police had caught the
situation where some guys gotten was
throwing rocks they came to shot over
there yeah maybe if I had been with my
brother that moment wouldn't have hit me
but as much it did but you know that's
this kind of everyone his neighbors
didn't want a shot they wanted right
right but you know and then that's
probably what
they're an example what your worst
period is if you're open father
definitely and I remember thinking if
you know this race is slightly different
that could be my brother that they
envisioned yeah and but opening up about
it and getting these degrees good
musician I've been in situations where
you know people come up to me and it's
like he's he's my famous brother so
great to see how well he's doing because
he was able to take it but he's also
still to this day experiencing the thing
that you're talking about about not
wanting to tell people about how it
might affect his career exactly was a
shame because he wants to be lawfully is
but it's
feels like it smells definitely I can
definitely sympathize with that yeah mg
sort of
[Music]
an executive side order item a small
worker at Wofford so I'm trying to look
at this also from what kind of policies
can be put in place now I think it's I'm
curious of your thoughts of
and wellness is for everyone not just
people oh definitely just wait what do
you think about that more broader Busan
approach or like like how much that's
good is one extent I think that part of
at least for me part of the stigma you
know there's a joke of I need to take
mental health days it's not really a
joke but you know everybody does need
them I agree but you know there there
are people who legitimately have mental
illness and of course and I hate to say
it but there are people who will say
well I need mental health days just
because they want to go shopping or they
want to go see a movie or something like
that so I think that having the policy
available is for everybody you don't
have to you know bring your I have
depression card to to take part in it
but also the people who take advantage
of it do ruin it for those of us who
have the mental illness and you need the
time off and because it's not an
outwardly apparent disability it's hard
for HR professionals or anybody in
companies to say well I don't believe
you can you come in with a doctor's note
or because I and the Azmi handbooks do
cover a lot of the ABA all guidelines
and I couldn't say off the top of my
head if well from what the HR
professional who told me you don't have
to tell me a disability all you have to
do is say I have a disability and
you know so they might have different
that I don't think there's a burden of
proof on the person claiming disability
I don't know if I just created more
questions or answered your question
[Music]
I don't have a good answer just to
respond to both sides of
I think it's really great you have a
neighborhood
particularly because like Judy mentioned
a lot of people don't know
this or
so I think that it can be really
important to avoid
I will buy
how many resources are in some way
undressing it needs before it because of
that
is defined by how it affects your
day-to-day life
on the other hand I could say that
whatever you do and I'm sure you know
this but I think it just
I would just be really mindful in here
the only thing predictable that
[Music]
like I said I don't have any suggestions
but
that's my perspective as
[Music]
anyone else yeah
[Music]
the paranoia
and to not get any things done feeding
into the paranoid not yeah
the way that you articulated I was
really spot-on and it's something that I
think families for me
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it's really hard to explain it
[Music]
you know and for other deaths in the
really it's it's when a project manager
comes up and and asks you about you know
the status of Boise and or so to give it
that rates you have all I was on a
project a couple of years
and it was like headed for failure like
the timeline was or it was it's gonna do
from the outside
[Music]
the other developers working with and
figured out how we were may get it done
we came up with their own again and the
response to our management unfortunately
was to keep
[Music]
yelling at us about getting wet
we were doing and that
so it's kind of like hearing a fan and I
was like hey play better
yeah have you tried not sucking that and
it just got to this point where I
thought that pressure from them was
crippling we couldn't do anything like
it was yeah
I do not understand that at all the head
of Judaism
right and so I guess I just like given
your experience like
do you know are there any ways to like
stop that cycle ones at your company
the best thing for me was when I did
take just a couple days off to
recuperate and might not even be that
much time it might be you know get out
of the office walk around the block a
couple times to clear your head but my
problem for me it was that I let it get
to that point where I couldn't function
and I needed those two three days to get
to a point where I could function again
even then the entire time and you know
fighting myself not to open up my laptop
and just say you know what I'm just
gonna keep trucking through this but
yeah I I wish that I had better answers
in that but one thing that I could
recommend or for project managers or
anybody in management is mental health
first aid it's a class that they I'm
sure they have around here every couple
months I should know how often I should
know where but I don't it is a great
class though double health for anybody
not just management to recognize and
better deal with mental health issues
instead of like you said well have you
tried working harder have you tried
working harder just keep going why
aren't you done yet because that that
that isn't effective
[Music]
yeah like that mindfulness yeah because
I
but I
so
I get to a point where I'm just
which doesn't work
yeah I was
it isn't about I'm assuming that people
in this room
but you're still able to function most
the time yeah and there are people who
have for example a paranoid
schizophrenia yeah they really need to
be institutionalized or even if they're
others just like they can't really hold
a job yeah you know them within the
community
person I think that the tech community
is extremely inclusive and there's a
spot for everybody in it and if we can
you mentorship or and yeah I I don't
like really talking about my paramedic
history because I feel like as I talk
about I'm saying well I was a paramedic
and haha no I I did experience some
stuff on there and like I said for both
sides
and some of the institutions assemble
tomorrow's I'm not gonna say that they
aren't but some of the institutions like
you say institutionalized are absolutely
just horrendous and there's no
opportunity for people who did put in
there so I think that you know this is a
much larger problem that mental health
needs to be taken seriously on a global
scale instead of just necessarily in the
tech community but if if there were
resources available like we outreach or
last year amid camp we did a specific
training for free for people with
disabilities come in and I think we made
it available to any disability and if
somebody one of the professor's here at
DePaul who teaches content management
systems put it on and it was extremely
well received so I think that you know
that it's a much larger problem than we
can solve in the eight minutes we have
left but definitely I think there is
spot a lot for everybody in the
technical video it's just getting the
resources available to
show them that the spots are open
anybody else
either from personal experience or just
any information you've read as you if
you maybe see somebody suffering the
same thing you've already accepted what
you had maybe haven't read before do you
have any suggestions on how to say
anything
maybe start the conversation in denial
the best I would say you know it's kind
of a touchy way it is very touching
until I can see it but anyway I think
that people like to be around people
like themselves so that if and they they
tend to open up you start talking about
yourself so if like me just random
survey how many people have who in this
room right now they have just opened up
about Mentalist talked about mental
illness prior to this event do this okay
so I saw some hands that didn't go but
you know now that I'm opening the
conversation other people are now
talking more about it just in this room
which I think it's great
so maybe talking about your own I'm not
saying your own but you know for
somebody who is observing that and
another person maybe he's saying well
I've been going through this and it
might spark them to say you know I've
been having kind of the same thing
happening now that you mentioned it what
can I do what helped you
I was thinking along those lines
is up to and tried to
help the conversation go along the lines
to help them
understand or see what they're doing
because you're not going to convince
somebody that paint they have to come to
that themselves
yeah and help them see where they're at
or what they're doing that's because you
can't change anybody that's a universal
law so but what you can do it you can
help them become aware go look at it
from that perspective
[Music]
depression and
right
it's worse and it tastes well
fornication
yeah that first two weeks to a month was
I I try to be as supportive as I can but
it's yeah it really is
baby knows that I'm there for them and
get reviews anything
but I can and that's all you can do just
try to do your best but just be
cognizant
[Music]
I both experience does not oscillate
ever close
I
you have a really really light touch
[Music]
mindful of what you're what you're
suggesting I I was try to be careful to
say for me when I experienced it when I
feel atomized even do you know this
helps or something like that and what
you are saying you have to they have to
realize
might be able to and I've seen but but
it's very easy
push someone over the line of where the
resistant to the idea because they I
think what I'm trying to
it depends where they are in their
mental journey going to therapy
who knows themselves in
you know straight up ask them how do you
like what can I do to help me like tell
me
leave me a lot more it might be like I
need you to do my dishes because I've
been able to do that horrible you know
stuff like that
it's definitely really really tough
[Music]
- question actually
[Music]
another brother who always had a hard
time dating a lot of people for years
and years
well somebody needs some kind of help
everyone who needed some kind of help
and a little would be dangerous to bring
up with it
kind of all kind of eventually
[Music]
because person
he says I think it can be helpful to
help someone understand the impact that
their mental illness have people take
care
now my one concerned about that to be a
person was
we might decide that
here
I
for me and because I'm older than a lot
of people doesn't work I tried that
approach for 45 years and when I finally
went to a psychiatrist she said so how's
that working for you
but but the one thing
one thing that got me through all those
years was not lying to hurt my children
so I had a pretty bad problems with
postpartum depression but always it was
geared towards I don't wanna hurt this
child so I better go away or something
like that and then right towards the end
of the time of mine you know
I my daughter was they got adult by them
but I said things I'm proud of her that
really scared her and I thought I guess
I did that to her how how could I have
done that hurt it's one of the things
that finally made me realize that that I
need
[Music]
so but like I said you know there were
certainly and in fact one of the things
I did say in front of her was that was
basically everyone would be better off
if I were dead you know Knightley
what do you do when your mother says
that to you it's like that's a family
it was like it was something I would
think about I actually had a method
but I wasn't truly like at that point of
Oh myself but but but seriously what got
me through those 45 years was I don't
want to hurt my husband I don't want to
hurt my children
my brothers and sisters it's not like
that so if somebody during that time had
said to me what you're doing is hurting
your children you just need some help it
might have helped
you kind of have to figure out what
drives that person like what's most
important
you know if you know them well enough
when you first turn athenian my initial
reaction was
oh my gosh some women told me that I was
like that I was hurting them that would
exacerbate everything because that's my
greatest fear but I think what you're
seeing is true and now
[Music]
it causes I think it's it shifts
where
it shows that perspective of just
shit
yeah you do just have to be really
careful though because people sometimes
truly believe that the world will be a
better place than their
so you just can't
but
and you know what's funny my son I
my son was diagnosed with depression
anxiety
and a demon he was about 20 years old
and he had to leave college because of
this tweet none for quite some time that
he was ill but he I won't go to a
therapist I'm not crazy
only crazy people need mental health
health but then he made it his full-time
job for about nine months to get better
he and a couple of different medications
which thankfully worked out well for him
he was able to go back to school and
and he's a
[Music]
he's developer in essence
but he was a kid we thought might never
get out of the
then he moves to Seattle and she's this
great child so that's like that's a here
successful but so all along oh I'm the
supportive mom you know yes honey you
know and we all really did learn a lot
from this experience like bringing his
psychological profile and stuff were
like wow you know we understand so much
better what's going on it was a really
great family experience even his younger
sister ended up understanding why there
were times when they really could barely
live in the same house you know but so I
hear I was great mom oh yes honey it's
just an illness you know you shouldn't
be changing it and this whole time I'm
knowing that I am ill - somehow a
connection for me is shameful for nobody
else has it changed just 'information
my therapist once said so what makes you
so special why is your husband all right
we are over time and I see people
standing at the door good rate him
anything
thank you all
