Hiring with Diversity in Mind

ANDREW OLSON:
OK, quick update, I was able to find them on the Drupal, Drupal slack. So I just sent them a quick direct message. But in the meantime, thanks everybody for coming to this topic. I'll put in the channel kind of the starting point of this topic provided by Eugena. I hope I'm saying that correctly. But I'm going to put in the zoom chat, the start of this topic. And I really appreciate seeing people come to this topic. It's good to see Gwen. I run cross Gwen at the Fox Valley Drupal meet ups, and that's great. So hi, everybody. If we want to get... Hey to see you again. And Fatma, it's good to see you here as well.

FATMA:
Hi

ANDREW OLSON:
Jason, I don't know if I've met you before, but it's very nice to meet you.

JASON BLANDA:
You as well.

ANDREW OLSON:
Yeah. So you know, I have the link out there and I'm just kind of here in the background. Happy to participate, but don't really have things to bring to this one, to be fully honest, I'm just excited to be here. So, that if somebody wants to kind of share some experiences or. And in the meantime, I'll see if Eugena can come to the topic. (AUDIO DISTORTS). Alright. a bit more info, just trying to backtrack. So as I said. I found them on Drupal slack, so I've send them a message. Looking at this, it was submitted on March 12th, which is great, because that was a few, that was two weeks ago today. So I don't know if they quite knew this would be a topic and accepted that it was great to see people voted and found it interesting. So that said, that might not have been. We appreciate everybody being with us with the Sun Conference format, you know, we, it's by the people, for the people. And its topics are picked and we're here talking about it and we're learning as we go, especially with this virtual format, so that this topic was submitted two weeks ago.

Might not have gotten all the way back to them to come and facilitate. But hey, we're here. Does anybody have any other topics or, you know, we can also go around as to why you found this interesting? Might be a good way to start the conversation. Feel free to put in to chat too and I could read out your responses, whatever makes you most comfortable.

MATTHEW:
So I'll go ahead and start. I am occasionally on a hiring committee for work. And it happens randomly (LAUGHS). So I don't necessarily know in advance what it's going to be for. But this most recent time it was for a programmer. Nothing web related, but it was a programming position. And we have... Well, I guess I'll back just slightly I work for the University of Illinois in Champaign, Illinois. And we definitely have a goal of increasing diversity in our hiring. And we have a hard time. We actually, we have a hard time getting applicants for the position, at least the one that I was on the committee for. But in particular, getting a diverse set of applicants is even more difficult. So basically, what I'm interested in is trying to figure out how to get more diverse applicants. I have a limited amount of control over the situation insofar as by the time it gets to me, the job description has been written. And because of the amount of bureaucracy that's around this, for better or for worse, there's a huge amount of restrictions and limitations on even what the job description could look like.

There are other people that would be trying to make sure that it's things are worded in such a way to increase diversity. So my involvement would simply be, you know, part of the interview process, what could I do, when it gets to that point. Also, I can certainly post job descriptions to places, you know, would imagine I might be able to get from a discussion like this would be, you know, where, can ask that in

JASON BLANDA:
I think mine is very similar to yours as well. We have a lot of open positions right now at Talamona. And we are desperately trying to hire people but there seems to need to be some improvement in the process a little bit because it doesn't seem like we're drawing in all the possible candidates that we could be. And something like this could help us glean some insights into, how can we better adjust our process to really put what we have out there to gain the most traction with everyone. And we can better find the right and best candidates.

ANDREW OLSON:
So I see something interesting. Matthew doesn't have as much control over the words, but you might have more control over the word. So to me, this is interesting. Do you find yourself changing the some of the wording in the descriptions or adding to try and to increase it? I don't know, I just find that interesting between the two things you've shared.

JASON BLANDA:
Well, I personally don't have much control over it and I'm just a part of the team that does some of the interviews. So at that stage of the game, maybe I'm a little earlier on than Matthew would be, because I actually get to interview each individual prospective employee. But as far as the crafting of the actual document itself, I don't have much of a role in that. But I do have some power to suggest options.

MATTHEW:
I have seen articles that, that, you know, suggest, well, you know, here is wording, here are ways that things, you know, are described that tend to make it so that only men apply, for example. And I can't remember specifics. And at this point I have no idea where I've seen those things, but I know that they exist, you know. People have done studies that show, oh, well, if you say that you want a rock star in the job description, you are, you know, you've just alienated 80% of the women applicants. For example, something like that. So, information on that exists.

ANDREW OLSON:
I find it interesting that, that term was used at my company and we have since not use that term. So I think that's progress. But I do find that term interesting and the progression of it moving out. So that's fascinating to me.

MATTHEW:
And I certainly understand wanting that to some degree or thinking that you want that. But considering the prevalence of imposter syndrome. You know, it just seems like, you know, asking for something like that is going to drastically reduce your applicants.

ANDREW OLSON:
And the disclosure was an end like a job description or anything. It's just a term used internally, but still I do find that really interesting and that to me makes sense.

MATTHEW:
Yeah, I'm sure, as you can imagine that the job descriptions for me are about as bland and uninteresting as they could possibly be.

ANDREW OLSON:
You're also a state school, correct, so state funded. So there's other channels I would guess it has to go through since you take money from the public, right?

MATTHEW:
Yeah, I mean, technically, I'm a state employee.

ANDREW OLSON:
Right.

MATTHEW:
So, yeah, it's I mean, the rules around hiring are massive, you know. I mean (INAUDIBLE). I've already, you know, the interview questions all have to be approved in advance. You have to ask the exact same questions of every single person that you interview. You can't go off script, except within very specific like, well, if they answer a certain way to the scripted question, then you could ask clarifying questions. But that's... So it's, you know, the crafting the words for the job description have to fit. I don't even know what I was involved with that. But I know that there are certainly a lot of rules about what sort of things you can ask for and what might be implied by asking, you know, saying that something is preferred versus required. And it's, you know, there's, there are a lot of people that just do that.

JASON BLANDA:
And I imagine to some extent that, that has to limit your playing field as well, because it is sticking to such a firm script. You don't really get to know the person

MATTHEW:
It is. I mean, I've been on one committee here and it was a very frustrating experience. And some of it's, you know, the people that apply and like, are they actually applying for the job description? Because it doesn't really seem like they are. But, you know, there's also just the fact like that, you know, we had one that was open I think, it was the beginning of October and then we, it was open until mid-November. So then we were able to actually start interviewing people at the beginning of December. So, you know, somebody applied in October, they hear back from us in December, they already have another job if they're, you know, a candidate we really want to talk to. And that just happened over and over again. You know, by the time that we are able to actually even respond to them saying, "We'd like to interview you." You know, they're not available anymore, which is completely understandable. It's just the way the system works. And that's the way it worked when I was hired three years ago to I think it was August when I was, it was probably actually July when I applied, August when I heard from them and I actually started mid-November.

Now, so we're talking, four months, five months?

JASON BLANDA:
Yeah. And that definitely. I've been involved in situations like that as well, and that definitely does kind of circumvent your ability to hire in diversity because some of the perfect candidates might be gone. Like you said, they might already have another (INAUDIBLE) and most likely will. And so it just seems like everything that we do, we limit our scope of who we have available. And I think we got to think about the wording. But also, like you said, think about the time and the process. And yeah, how much red tape are we putting in place to prevent people? You know, we might not be intentionally preventing people from applying or interviewing, but we put all this red tape in process involved that by the time we get back to them, it's too late.

MATTHEW:
Yeah, I understand it to some degree. I mean, Illinois is famous for its institutional corruption, so, you know, a lot of red tape is there to limit that.

JASON BLANDA:
Yeah.

MATTHEW:
And you have to go through all of these steps. You have to have 50 people look at it and sign off on it first. OK, I get that, but it has unintended consequences as well.

JASON BLANDA:
Absolutely.

ANDREW OLSON:
So that the (INAUDIBLE) that we started out, I think I was employee 20. And so a lot of what happened was referrals, you know, and like people are growing. We're now over 700 people.

JASON BLANDA:
Wow!

ANDREW OLSON:
So for me, the hiring where I felt like I knew, I did know every single person, interacted with every person over the course of the scale of growth that's gotten away from me. And I've drifted further and further away. So that's why this conversation is interesting to me but I feel And there is, it would be interesting to have one of our recruiters in HR people there, because that team has just grown and grown and grown. And I just don't know how we ever, we still have a referral, it's an internal referral. But I do feel that at this scale and at this time, you know, we don't want referrals used to be here, right. You interacted and worked with that and that kind of becomes its own echo chamber, you know. You start doing like people, unless the people a wider base, you know what I mean? So I don't really have any point or solution here, it's just been an interesting arc of being involved, not involved, seeing it, unfold. So I find this a really interesting conversation.

MATTHEW:
Amy June has the solution for us, I'm sure.

AMY JUNE:
The solution of a problem, of something I did not hear about coming

MATTHEW:
That increase diversity.

ANDREW OLSON:
In hiring, yeah.

AMY JUNE:
Oh, OK. So I don't know what's been discussed so far, but I do help my team because one of my roles at Canopy is I work in the community. And what that does for us at Canopy is it's like a natural talent recruitment because people see what I present on, they see the Canopy name, they see that canopy is committed to working in the community because that's important for some folks to know that, working in the community is important for the company they work with corporate citizenship. So it is something that I think about. I don't actively talent recruit because that's not my role, you know what I mean? But that's part of my role and it's just inherent, whatever you can just do from that. But but how we approach this is, we make sure that the places we go and the places we post our jobs are inclusive and diverse communities. Because when it comes back to getting the applications on the talent side at our company, they don't screen, you know. They just look at everybody's qualifications.

So the hope is that our jobs. So for me, you know, I work with the job board for bad camp, and Canopy is on that job board along with other agencies in the San Francisco Bay Area. Because bad camp and (INAUDIBLE) is one of my community things, and I want people to apply for jobs for the companies that sponsor us. And those companies want diverse candidates. And so what I do is I make sure that I post in channels like the Diversity and Inclusion Careers Channel. And I post in, you know, the Rainbow Channel. And I post in places like the, I'm part of an accessibility community. So we post in the accessibility community because we understand that a quarter of our population live with disabilities and it's important to have that representative in our quarters as well, you know. So, that's how we approach it. It is making sure that we post in places where those diverse candidates will see those roles. I cannot tell you what it yields, you know, because I'm not on that side of it, but I do make sure that to those channels.

And honestly, I don't always post to the regular career channel and Drupal slack. Sometimes I forget, you know, and I make sure that those excluded communities have that, kind of that first shot at it, you know. Is that the right thing to do? I don't know. But that's what I do as a person and as a human. (LAUGHS) Hoping that those, like I said that those, that the pipelines are there and. And then I also am a part, because I'm a woman and I'm disabled, I'm hard of hearing, I'm married to a woman and so I'm LGBTQ. So the part of a little bit different community based than a lot of folks, you know. And so I think about that. So I'm part of like a woman in technology channel and I'm part, you know what I mean? And so, I allow myself to be vulnerable and open myself up and let people know that I am that person, because when you look at me, I am this white privileged woman from California. Do you know what I mean? And so, it's been a real challenge for me admitting, or not admitting but disclosing that information about myself.

So when, so people feel more comfortable, you know, and I know that not everyone here can do that either because, you know, I'd like to say I'm privileged that I'm disabled. I'm privileged that I'm LGBTQ. I'm privileged that I'm a woman, you know, because if I just frame it a little bit differently, you know. So I can, I hope I'm like that role model or that like, oh, there is someone that looks or isn't that, you know, for lack of a better word demographic that I am. So I feel safe with this person. I can approach them or whatever. So did that answer the question without being too verbose?

ANDREW OLSON:
A couple things that I heard from what you said. It sounds like, you know, you try and go to the source of the applicants and so you just going around. So, Jason, like, do you find where that job is available, do you feel empowered to share in those channels or is it. I think what you were saying is the interview part may not be up to you to cast that net to get those applicants, correct?

JASON BLANDA:
Yeah, it doesn't seem like that. I mean, as an employee, you know, we do have the opportunity to share our job listings wherever we want, but we don't, you know, maybe have the influence as to how we word it things like that. And then, I'm more like second line interview. So somebody interviews first and then I get to do the next round of interviews and, you know, weigh in on my opinion. And by then, your chances for that diverse candidate keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So I think what Amy June was saying was really good as you have the ability to go to the communities and to say. Hey, we're hiring and we'd like to have you. And And, know, and we're not just strictly going to this one place. I'm just hoping that we get diversity. We're able to seek out diversity.

AMY JUNE:
And I do have to admit, like just recently I asked my team because like, because I know a lot of people in the community and I'll like do an introduction like, hey, Andy, do you want to work for Canopy? Do you want an introduction? Like, if the answer's yes. And so I'll introduce them to my HR person and say, hey Andy, fill out an application. I know him from, I know them from this scenario, blah blah blah. And I have, I ask because like, I have this one developer friend who's disabled, but you can't tell by looking at them. And I wanted to let my team know that he was disabled because it's, I think it's a wonderful addition to the team because it shows that our back end needs to be just as accessible as our front end for our technology. But I had, I was told to resist that urge because it places bias. It doesn't matter what the bias is, it's still bias. And they have to look at the qualifications and the qualifiers to make that second round. And that's very challenging for me sometimes because it's like, oh, but I really think (LAUGHS).

But it is if we're biased one way, we have to be mindful of our biases the next, you know. And so, I actually sort out like the bias training recently and I'm going to take next week, you know, bias and how we run our meetings and how with our teams, because I have that bias the other way. And is that fair, you know? So that was an interesting concept to me, you know. But, you know, they said just be mindful about where you post the jobs, be post the jobs in those places where you want to see that pipeline coming in from. And that puts like, you know, like I said, I was already doing that. But it really puts it in that perspective of, OK, we do, we, we have to love everybody, you know. But it is very challenging for me not to say that, you know, like, hey, you know. I don't know, but. (LAUGHS) But it's challenging when in (INAUDIBLE), we hire WordPress too. But it's hard when, even like let me extrapolate this or extend this into like the organizer, camp organizer, things we're recruiting for people to help mid-camp organizers.

And I'm the only woman on those calls. And it's not that we haven't done our due diligence and we haven't reached out, but no one's come back to us, you know. And that's the challenging part, you know. Same thing with speaker selection, you know, it's. If 98% of the people who submit sessions are white or men, you know, how do you choose that even though you've reached out to, you know, black girls with code or all of those places that we reach out to when we talk about jobs too. You know, if you don't have those people applying, they're just not in that, they can't get into the selection process if there's no one to select. So...

JASON BLANDA:
Well, thank you guys for this. I do have to run. I have another meeting to catch, but this has been a great conversation. Thanks, everybody. (CROSSTALK). You too.

ANDREW OLSON:
I relate to what you're saying, Amy June about advocating for a candidate, because that's been some of the frustration that I've had just being candid at my company with. I was talking earlier before about like the scale where I felt like it was influence and tangible and I could communicate directly, like my thoughts and my impression and I felt like it mattered. And on some level, it's pretty good. Based on what you're saying Amy June is that, that is a voice, but it shouldn't always be (INAUDIBLE) voice, because it might end up just being the same applicants. Or if that person always recommending doesn't pull from a diverse pool, it's going to be self-perpetuating in referrals, right? But I'm with you where I had two colleagues that I'd worked with before that did come from diverse backgrounds. I really worked very well with them. I was super excited that, to their detriment, they were on the job market again. And I was like, great we'll snag these people, they're amazing, you know.

I, they're exactly the right fit here. And I put them in the process. And again, I didn't, they just kind of fell into that process and I didn't see anything on the other side. This is because the process had changed for better or for worse and all of the things. So, I went and they dug and explored and it was just kind of again, because it was just a little frustrating to say, hey, we're looking for people. And I found the people and I suggested the people. And then, nothing quite happened all the way through it. I also, I'm not on full disclosure, I'm not on the hiring team, you know. I am a front end developer here. But at the same time, I was on the outside and it was very hard for me to see inside of that box of what's going on to put a really good thing inside of that box and couldn't see what was happening in there. So, I did ask for more transparency and conversation. So, was able to get a little bit more clarity with that. So that was helpful but, it did, again, being candid just make me want to say, well, why should I even try?

You know, I find these people that we say we're looking for just talent. You know, people from diverse backgrounds. And it's just, it was kind of a hard thing. So, thanks for listening.

AMY JUNE:
And then there's the problem where I ask someone specifically, hey, do you want to work for this company? Do you want to work for this team? And they go to the team page and there's a lack of diversity on the team page, and it's like, well, I don't want to apply because there's no one, you know, like me on this team page. It's like, but we need people like you to be on the team page. You know, it's like this like (LAUGHS). That's why, you know, I want you on my team. You know, I want your voice. I want your expertise. I want that fresh perspective. And so I think that's scary for people who have been excluded too that, if there's no one on there, you know, that looks like me or identifies as me, is there a reason behind that? You know, did they all leave, did they? And I've been there before, too. I've looked at a company and I'm like, oh, there's no women on the team. I don't want to be the woman on the team. And then, I got an interview and I'm like, well, do I only have the interview because I'm the only woman who applied?

And it was this (LAUGHS). It was another battle of too much thinking, you know? Like, oh, I don't want to be that taken afraid. I've done this with speaking before, like, oh, there's no women speakers. I'll apply to be a speaker and then I get chosen or someone reaches out to me like from a DevOps Summit where historically you don't see a lot of women speaking at DevOps and like, wait a minute. Are you only reaching out to me because I'm a woman? And then I'm only talking because I'm a woman? Then it gives me that imposter syndrome that I'm not good enough and no one (LAUGHS) And I can see that translating into the job world, too. So very, complicated.

ANDREW OLSON:
I found myself reaching out to people to, to make sure that I wasn't coming across those way either. Is like I'm asking you for these reasons and these qualifications. I'm not asking you for all these other reasons. You know, and I'm doing that to myself. I'm in my own head saying, you know, whether it's reaching out to, you know, diverse, somebody with a diverse background, whatever, I'm cognizant of why I'm asking. I try to make that really clear. And I also try and have an actual conversation, because my life, candidly, you know, words and text messages or words in emails can be misconstrued and not provide context that you can have an a real conversation. And to Amy June, your, your thing about feeling safe and being able to share and talk about those things. You know, those are really important and I've seen a lot of written word cause a lot of damage. And, as I approach people, I try and convey and I overthink and I try really hard to convey that. And then I try and also lead it to a conversation where appropriate, because not everybody is comfortable to have those conversations.

But, I do find myself trying so hard to communicate all those things.

AMY JUNE:
And, and as, our shelter in place extends, our communications are becoming shorter and dryer. That's something I've been very cognizant of because I recently was told I needed to shift my attitude. And it's like, what do you need to shift my attitude? And they're like, well, you're coming across very harsh like, I am! And I looked them like no, I districted (INAUDIBLE) emotion, but because I was sparkly before I was told I lost my sparkle, but I was sounding harsh and I was just like, wow, OK, because we're not seeing people and we're not, we're just done, right? So that's something to be mindful too, like you said that written communication, I think, is becoming more and more hard than more and more aware. That's all we're doing is written communication versus stopping someone in the hallway or seeing them at our meetup or having conversations on the bus or however we meet people that we want to interview with their companies. So.

ANDREW OLSON:
The irony is, the more I'm comfortable with people closest to me, the more direct I am, (LAUGHS) the more it sounds. So I'd have my spouse during this call, they would say it's because I love and trust and don't stop there, but I just get direct to the point of what is necessary. And so I find that just personally challenging. Yeah, those are, those direct. As the comfort goes up, the directness comes out, especially in me. So interesting dichotomy that I struggle with a lot.

MATTHEW:
So one of the things that I have thought about with regards to (INAUDIBLE). You know, posting a job listing in various forms, I guess. Is that most of the people that, or most of the forms that I'm part of these days, it seems like, are actually Web development oriented. Even though the current job that I have actually has nothing to do with Web development which is kind of funny. But that's just, that's what it is right now. So, like the last job posting when I was on the hiring committee forward is, what we really wanted was a programmer that could do network programming or, you know, particularly that had abilities with regards to security. And I'm, I'm hesitant to post a job like that to, you know, someone that is basically spends their time working with Drupal or WordPress or something like that, because it's, it's not the same sort of thing. And maybe I shouldn't be afraid to post it someplace like that.

AMY JUNE:
I don't think you should have that fear because people are always looking to switch things out, expand their skill set, and they know someone who might fit that role. Because that's a big one is like, I we do have WordPress and I'm in some WordPress spaces, but I'm really more comfortable with my Drupal friends, you know. I just am because I've been in there longer. And I'll post WordPress jobs in those spaces because they know somebody, you know. And I've been successful with that so far but I make that might be two different sort of things but, we all know people. So I trust that, you know, if I know someone who's looking for a data scientist job and someone comes into a rainbow channel. I mean, and puts the data scientist job, I'm going to be like, hey, I know someone, you know, can I connect? And so that sometimes happens. Not often, but you know, enough.

MATTHEW:
Well, at this point, you know, it's hard to find people. So I really should take more chances. I mean, there's there's really, you know, the worst I guess that I could do is, irritate people, so.

ANDREW OLSON:
I will also say I (INAUDIBLE) like a lighter notion is that, like I also know people and I've been around, so it might not be me specifically looking for it, but, you know, my, my friend might be a good match for that. So casting that net really wide would be would be good. So I would encourage that. And yeah, you never know whose connection of what. I do know two jobs ago, he was a musician friend of mine that said, "hey, you should talk to Chris." And I talked to her and we hit it off really well. And next thing I knew, I wasn't looking for a job and I ended up there and it was a great experience working for her. But that's how it all started and it seems like you two seem like, you would hit it off. And it was not even a job posting it, really. She was like, yeah, we're thinking of, of this. So, making those connections in the right, in the right spaces can, can go far. So.

MATTHEW:
And realistically, due to the, you know, bureaucracy that I work within, you know, somebody who's not unemployed, it's probably our best chance for hiring somebody because they have time, we.

AMY JUNE:
And that's a problem too as some of those longer hiring processes are excluded or marginalized. Communities don't have that time to wait through our hour long hiring processes or waiting for that job to open up opportunities, you know, which is unfortunate. Kind of like the people who move, that move the same day they move out of a house. And don't have that luxury of a week to have a transition period. You know that's (LAUGHS) that's tough for me to think of it in those, those through that lens.

ANDREW OLSON:
I have a mini update, so this session was suggested by Eugena and I reached out the the Drupal slack to them and they just hit me up saying, Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't hear back that my session was selected. I have another meeting. So, this is more for like Amy June and a retrospective to say, hey, this was a great topic. I'm really glad we had this conversation with everybody here but, with this virtual is challenging. She submitted it two weeks ago and we never double back that it was selected to be a part of today. So I don't know.

AMY JUNE:
We almost need to send a reminder, you know, hey the unconference was on two days days, we signed up for this, we still have availability,

ANDREW OLSON:
By the way, be there at, if you can, be there at 10 to advocate for your topic, you know, blah, blah, blah. So we will make this better next time. She was very disappointed. She just sent, "I would have loved to have done it had I had known." Tragic, but we're once again where this is the year of learning, so we're figuring this out, virtual and conferences. Coming in, coming in hot and all of the topics so. Thanks, everybody.