Mentorship in Drupal

CHRIS MCGRATH:
I'm going to get started here just talking about mentoring and finding a mentor in the value of that community here, the Drupal community. So let's see here, "The best engineers are mentors," they are right, because, honestly, being a mentor helps you speak about what you do to others. Right. And hearing about hearing that often helps one verbalize some of the fundamentals, which we sometimes get out of touch with in our daily work as we're focusing on the next thing. Sometimes we may forget that people don't always know all the things that we do, so we need to be continually avoiding making assumptions and I think that's one of the biggest things one of the biggest fundamentals that I think is important to keep top of mind. So for me, I have been in the Web business as long as there's been a Web almost so like I remember things like Netscape and stuff, so that that dates me right. I started in digital strategy and networking and a company called AT&T and started my own Web firm then.

And I really felt a lot of pain from the lack of modular development out there in the marketplace. So when I heard about something called Drupal in around 2010, 29555, just on the cusp of April 6th, I got started to pop the tires and see what was going on. And inevitably I lost another product that helped me get to a level of mastery that people wanted to hire me for what I did with Drupal. So I started a firm in 2011 called Celebrate Drupal, did a lot of state and federal government work, and that availed me to a lot of different experience along the way with some agency still is an agency. So we needed contractors. And so we formed a platform that over the years grew to be one of the largest suppliers, probably the largest supplier of Drupal contractors. And that really helped us immerse in the career of many. Right. That's something where we realized we needed to help not only at beginning of their career journey but that might be 20 plus years in and require some pointers and or refinement to their skill to be able to get on the best projects and stay on the best projects once they get there.

In 2009, we formed Esteemed and that was in response to doing what we do beyond verbal, into other more progressive worlds that are exploding out there at JavaScript in the mean stack and Mern stack, et cetera. And so Esteemed is growing by leaps and bounds and just doing well. Really, what that comes down to is a couple of different things, which effectively is listening and actually understand that people do. And being able to therefore send the folks that are looking for that talent their way rather than them having to sort through a bunch of people that kind of don't really know what they do and sort of are sending to anybody that might work to them, which we all know. Most of us are probably finding opportunities, especially if we have experience. And therefore it's about finding that right and right opportunity right for our stage career and our interests, which as engineers can become fairly nebulous and detailed. So the next part about why Esteemed is becoming more and more successful all the time is because we were about talent incubation.

We always noticed in the beginning with Drupal contractors that even at (UNKNOWN) we've been on panels with the Drupal Association, etc. The main one of the main issues facing this product is a deficit of talent, and therefore it really requires a focus on talent incubation. What is that really a large part of it is mentoring and experience and trying to create projects if you don't have them, that would be low risk for folks that are on the newer side of things trying to connect with other incubation sources. One of our strong partners is Mike Malone, who believes he's always been very tribal, part of growing folks in the moody side of Drupal development. And it's helpful in every way. We have Mike helping now folks that are seasoned developers, getting them in touch with some new developments and so on and even things that aren't so new that maybe they haven't had a chance to explore. So talent incubation, looking at different types of that, what is it? I mean, we're looking for people that are coaches.

Hey, don't say this. Do say that. Make sure you're setting expectations. Why is it that, someone's chasing after you, they don't know where you are? You didn't know this. You didn't know that. Stop and think. Right. So people that can help you remind one of things they may already know as well as trying to help them achieve on a playing field. Really, I can't help with sports analogies, even though I'm not really a huge sports person or anything, but it is almost like that, an athletic event, if you will. I know, to be a top performing developer. And that's something that I think does take some training, not only on the technical side of things, but on the soft skills side of things, especially if you're in business for yourself as a freelancer. It also takes some advice sometimes as to what should I be doing? Should I do this or should I do that? Should I take on this next role? How much should I layer to be prepared for the next opportunity that my contract is ending May and will leave me without an income, et cetera, et cetera?

A lot of these things, they're constantly plaguing the minds of people that are working in that way. Certainly. Given other talks that would illustrate, that is certainly the way to make the most money in this business. There's no question about it not to be a freelancer and continually grow your level of popularity and therefore being able to charge higher and higher rates and get on more and more interesting projects to catapult to the next. And that all starts somewhere, right. We have people that are out there now working on these projects. Were just chatting with Rick Torchinsky here about Department of Homeland Security, Department of Information Services, herbicide, Justice, Interior. A lot of these major projects and folks, they started just under us doing low level things that prove to us that they would be capable of taking on more and more. But I remember some of those folks, we'd have to remind them to check their calendars so that they showed up at meetings but they could short code up some back and Drupal.

So that's what mattered. Ultimately, it's about sort of supplementing those skills that are lacking for some people that are incredibly talented in other areas sometimes (SIGHS). So mentor, what is it? I mean, I know I'm always sort of some of these old adages like (COUGHS) necessity drives me, drives necessity. Right. So, if you have a need, you're going to look to fill it. And I know that in the beginning when I was building a business from scratch I really have need, right. I still have needs every single day because we created a business around having a need. But one of the original needs that we had were young people that we could rely on and really offer opportunities because that's what every business requires. Right. We can have plain old dogs around with grey hair that can lead and do complex operations. But on the other hand, and there are a whole class by themselves as to how they might benefit from skill supplementation. But on the other hand, the people that are the doers, the worker bees, are really the folks that are going to come up with some foundational education to be out there and be able to get out there and roll out the project actually carry out the bulk of the tasks.

And so really, it's about getting out there and finding people who can I get these recommendations from, and certainly camps like this are a huge part of it. I mean, I'd say that most of the people that I have ever found that you're Blossoms from that. Meeting were from Carveth related to some sort of camp organizer in some one way or another from (INAUDIBLE), and it was a Drupal user, Evergreen State College (BACKGROUND NOISE). And just finding people that you could say you could trust, you could trust their mentor, whether that be a professor or, again, just a formal mentor that the mentee had found in their technical community and in this case, Drupal, because I have pretty much been heads down here for about a decade with Drupal and thus come about to the place where I am effectively had to take it upon myself to help with the talent incubation out there, because just really there was like really not enough people. And so it was almost like there's no choice but to do this. How do we do it?

And that really is a one on one situation where you're going to find somebody, you're going to try to get a testimonial from someone that you trust to some degree and then go from there and try to give them some opportunities to prove their worth and then continue to do that in a progressive way (SIGHS). And so this is kind of where it all comes down to that back and forth. What trust is built on a continual basis in my experience. Right. So you're literally getting down in the trenches with these people? Definitely. Repeatedly found that young people will know more than I do in certain cases about some newer operation, etc. And that is also the beauty in the harmony of things where I mean, I don't know how to put together a project. I know estimation to launch and everything in between that most likely will statistically arise. So I'm going to keep my eyes open for that. But do I know the best mixing for this or the best method for that? Not always. So it's nice to be able to provide that structure and allow people to excel in the areas that they do while absorbing that structural process and becoming more and more experienced and adapt at what they do.

So here are a couple of different kinds of mentorship, I think, I mean, something that's happening on the job and a real informal way. Hey, I think I might do this. I might do that. What do you think about this? Do you know anything about this particular thing? Because I've never heard of it and as I say, I usually continually surprised that the things that folks know that I don't. Which, again, is that give and take of being a mentor and again, paving the way often is what you're doing for your mentee on a project. Should you be to do something formal? We set up programs, other people do. We know. Certainly there's plenty of agency. We learn things like that, that folks like that, that scout at universities or code camps, things like that, and actually introduce a formal program, whether eight, 16 weeks. My former employer, Accenture, does the same thing for people like a Drupal university. And this can be great. I mean, it's certainly actually the only way one can get a formal educational experience where you're actually dealing with a project you're going to learn about what that project requires and the requirements there and actually be able to practice your craft with Drupal and modular development.

And that's a unique experience. You really need a roadmap there. And that's going to be a little bit different here than the informal side of things (COUGHS). There's a couple of different sort of forms and titles that the mentoring structure puts things, and I think that's definitely I feel like at times sometimes my mentees become my anchor out there. And some of the folks that are still at my right and left out there delivering, and it's really something that brings a sense of pride to someone like myself to just say, hey, what I do is in stride. I mean, I'm a have a business and we need to find more customers for it and we need to find talented individuals to deliver. And so that's where the anchor comes in. I think that often folks will be like daddy, this happened that happened to you people yesterday. Someone said to me, I'll do, do employers normally just go to the manager and never share their frustrations with the individual? And I said, unfortunately, that is common. I don't think it's practical or productive necessarily, but unfortunately, it is.

And so at least for me to be like you're not special. It happens to the best of us. That's a management style that some people choose that put them at ease. That was something where they could feel like, OK, I can just get back to it and we'll do better with the next one and so to find (AUDIO DISTORTS). that. individual. I mean, I had to stand up for stuff that I know that I brought to the fold. And I had to say, hey (SLAMS TABLE), this guy might be one of those people that you can't get touch with sometimes or, is sort of on the spot with every single response, et cetera. But no, they're craft and they know their craft as well as additional add-ons to the craft, which is something to be said for people that. I mean, let's just take the example of, say, Drupal and then Drupal commerce, for example. I mean, this is not something that like grows on trees. You have to take the good with the bad and try to work with that person. Right. Try to state that they are valuable, that you don't want to be physical with these people for lack of a better word.

And you want to try to build on what you have. Should that be possible? Obviously, at times there really is no helping people. They will do what they do. But on the other hand, there are opportunities to help people that will listen and want to improve themselves on a regular basis, even though maybe they've been in the business for ten plus years. So, here someone to inspire. I mean, I think that seniority as far as the sort of I was going to say, as far as the delta between junior and senior, I would say one inspires the other the junior inspirers the senior to see, as I say some of the things that we just don't know, we forget we haven't seen in a while and just the energy of youth, et cetera. I think it is inspiring. And then, of course, vice versa, the seniority of experience, et cetera. You kind of know where the land mines are going to be. Hopefully you're there to kind of watch out for that person. And I think that dovetails with the partner below. I certainly have a couple of very important, dominant partners in my business in Esteemed and as well as more junior folks and also partners.

And it's, every single one of them are highly valuable relationships in my life very intrinsic relationships. And to the point where they are family comes first, but they're certainly second. And so I think that that's indicative. This is powers my ability to be out there and creating something. And that's important. For me and for others that are out there, whether you're creating this module, whether you're creating this presentation to win over stakeholders, et cetera, it's important to have a second pair of eyes and essentially a support system as opposed to just kind of going it alone (SIGHS). So as far as perfect storm mentorship it's a relationship, as I just said, I guess I get ahead of myself on these slides, but really what it comes down to is that right? You're not going to be inspired. I'd say most of the people here are in a position where they're going to be like boy, I really need that money for my mentoring. No, I don't think so. I think it's more like we're going to be doing that of some other motivation similar to myself, where we're looking to recruit talent, cultivate talent, get them out there on projects.

What other on the other hand, this is a relationship. I mean, I can't obviously be a champion as we saw on the last slide, for anyone that I can't feel comfortable with, that I can't feel that I can advocate for and say, hey, I mean, I've had people come to me to be kidding me. This person is in charge come back well, believe me, if they may look young, but if I do not believe in them wholeheartedly and know that they could do this job, they would not be sitting in front of you and behold, I mean, this is one true. Luckily, I guess I'm a decent judge of character on that front. And that's what being a manager and a principal is all about right to stand up to those folks, be that champion and say you don't know how lucky you are to have this person sitting in front of you, despite whether or not you think they look like know your 16 year old friend or something. So, I think that it's all about really understanding what are the mutual benefits right to everyone here, and I know as the mentor for me and I really don't get to do it enough as I would like it, especially now that I'm moving more, more into management every day.

It's really my small circle of of reports that I mentor. But the other thing that I think it is very fulfilling is, is that we are actually growing a mentoring community. And I used to be involved in this in the Drupal seven world with Build a module and Shaddock and trying to help cultivate that business with his mentoring network. And it's something that I really have tried to carry forward to truly with Esteemed. And we're excited to continue to do that in a more formal basis. We do it in a more informal based on a more informal basis. Now, some formal mix of both. But I think that we know more and more now how vital project support can be for people just from getting to point A to point B. And again, this could be people that are very, very deep into the Drupal world that just need a nudge, need a perspective on a tool or a methodology, and that is essentially becomes invaluable. It could ward off a tailspin that could go from hours to days, right. In really just a few minutes of interaction.

So that's, I think, incredible. And due to the power of technology, as I said, in a way back in the day when I thought, wow! we could replace paper, that to me is on par with that type of real time advice in the community of of unified communications and how we can leverage that for various things such as this (SIGHS). And, hey, I think that I've covered most of this stuff. You're right. And it really can get you over the hump. One more, what happened there? Sorry. A mouse. Sorry. As I say, really finding the right community is critical and happening. I remember when I was first learning how to work with the lab, working for different folks it was very early, So it was like they let anybody who was like and how to do that go up and try to help advance the goals of, I mean, let's say, having a Web presence throughout the organization was pretty much just like, get this out there, make it happen. And so I remember that the folks standing over my shoulder who were a little bit ahead of me really made my job possible and well, at least absolutely far more simple than it otherwise would have been without them.

And this was like way before Google and stuff. So you didn't have that. We had to rely on more of our folks around us. This is the only time I get to I like feel good about talking about being old, I think it's probably like, wow, back then before Google. So anyway, getting started. Right. I mean, I think it's about plugging in to resources that can help whether do you know local folks that mentor others? Do you have a local Drupal organization? I mean, today you can get involved in just about any Drupal organization or regional Drupal organization that you like. And I mean, folks, it's probably wise to choose something at least within commuting distance of your location. But, I know I'm having a lot of fun helping out with, like New York City my former home, even though I'm across the country. And so really, I think getting started and not only trying to see who's showing up that might benefit from some mentoring, but also trying to organize within that structure, some other folks that might offer some mentoring and again, try to initiate some projects.

Those folks all have websites that need attention and help and volunteering. And there are really no better place to experience something new and avoid the fear of failure. To some extent. They're also professional developers. So normally won't, provide a struggle. They'll be hopefully a separate environment from production. So we won't be out there causing ourselves more stress than we are growth in our craft. And so I think that a lot of that kind of stuff is important to get out there and get started and just try to avail yourself of the opportunities, because no matter what I can tell you, I mean, everything from (INAUDIBLE) down in the fourth and fifth grade I have children and I have the impetus to want to do that. And, when I got there to see, what, like 12 year-olds do with Python, I was just blown away. So I think that it's really something that you can look at. And that's obviously just one example. I mean, there are really just and these are not necessarily like gifted people, really.

They're just students that are doing the right things, are being put in front of them, and they have to be curiosity to follow them and and test that craft and build confidence. Right. And again, mentors really are the key to that. And you generally will not find that kicking around the average elementary school. So, kind of getting involved and taking a second being like hey, I could squeeze in that extra few hours of freelance work and make 150 bucks or whatever it is, 300 bucks. Or I could go down to school and see if I can help out making sense here or one of the other possibilities, as I mentioned camps and events and even local contributors running their own business, doing the same. So as far as, obviously we talked a lot about what's the benefits to the mentee. Really, it's about getting out there and testing technical as well as soft skills. And if you put yourself out there and you kind of overcome the fear because really that's not going to serve you in any way. Alright. What I mean?

Just don't be afraid to fail is really, Watch word, watch phrase that everyone knew to the fold and even many, many folks, again, decade in or more or shift like Drupal, seven to Drupal eight, major paradigm shift in a number of areas. This can be very, very daunting to people that are setting their skills and confidence in what they do. And by the way, now you're whatever it is, I know, you're mid 40s, et cetera, and you need to effectively relearn 70% of what you do. This can be a head crushing reality for some and something that they really just can't get past. So I've definitely been in contact with them, helped a lot of different people in that boat. And it's really about a crossroads, right, that we all have to go through over different periods of our career. What is it that we love? What is it that we are good at? Is it this or is there another element of what we do here that could still benefit the group? Right. Those that that show up to deliver on digital projects. So we can just kind of refer to them blankly as a group.

But there are many roles, right? It doesn't always have to be, I'm a coder to bring value to the delivery of a successful project. So I think that it's about kind of identifying your skills, avoiding negative thinking really, and not being afraid to fail. I mean, that's what growth is all about. I mean, you really just have to get out there, fail, I mean, don't be surprised if you get fired a few times. This is an extremely cutthroat world that is very nuts and bolts. I would definitely say that one of the main reasons that I took up mentoring and talent incubation was not only the sheer lack of talent in this world, in the marketplace Drupal, but also due to the fact that I would see commonly even when I started out myself, that if you weren't this, you didn't have just that and you had a skill gap that you needed to fill. Maybe the project pace would allow for that, right? If you were, say, 80% of the way there. But many times it wouldn't and you would be cut. And that's that. Right?

Really, there's nothing I mean, I'm going to have to apologize, you name it. And it's really just something that we have to understand that are the dynamics of this business. It is not a personal thing. It's about that thick skin, if you will, to understand what is the objective. It's not personal. Where do I fit or do I not fit? And then we kind of go from there as far as our personal relationships. But really, it is very much a business that's aimed at achieving a goal. And we are the cogs in that wheel that make that goal happen. And either we are a part of the system that is working or not. And that may be very subjective, depending on various things that sometimes don't even have anything to do with technology. So, I think that it's just about kind of having a positive attitude, learning taking the good from any experience, not just the ones that was like, my gosh, you did such a great job. We finished under budget. You're the best thing since sliced bread. That isn't always going to happen.

Right. And that should not be discouraging for people because I mean, I analogize this business to being a mechanic often or a builder. And not every house is going to go up easily. Not every car is going to come in and fit the pattern that we hope or have the bulbs that we saw in the last. So it's attitude adaptive ability. And that is not easy. As I say an athletic event is really something that it feels like when you're at a high performance level and big budget projects, there's a lot of pressure. So don't forget to make sure that you're keeping your work life balance in check and keep that's top of mind (SIGHS). I would say as far as getting started as a mentee and I've covered some of this, just get out there share your challenges. We've had people come in as the in the community for Esteemed and on slack and they're like Drupal is really a very exclusive world. I've been working as a developer for four or five years. The job is to experience this and that. But I'm not getting a foot in with Drupal what can I do?

And so I think that put a spotlight on people like that for us people to go on LinkedIn, hey, I lost my contract. I need a new one. Hey, first you're like, wow, that's really humble to be able to or even may be desperate to do that. But on the other hand, I can tell you it works because it will hit home with people and they will take notice, too, that courage and the shamelessness to say, look, I need some help here and I have value. And I can tell you that particular individual we took under our wing and we put on a project and we said this isn't going to be a problem for you. You can do it. And they were scared at first and then had the orientation with this is a front end position with the Drupal gaming system. And right after that, it was like, fine, so no problem. I don't worry about the first place. And so I think that that's a lot of this. You're seeing the challenges. You're looking at ways that I need to do get involved. Maybe I need to communicate some things or better communicate some things on my resume, participate be around so people know who you are.

Right? I mean, that is it. If you're not around, no one knows who you are and you will not avail yourself of any opportunities. So this is important to participate, volunteer if you have family and you're you're getting involved in a new area of career, let them know this is going to take a long time. I may not get paid. I have to pay my dues, etc. And this, again, really often has nothing to do with age. It really is just about your stage of experience and along the continuum. (COUGHS) I would say that my senior partners and I are always mentoring one another. It's something where you have a skill set and often look for people that compliment you to be able to do things better than you can in a specific area. And that's something that is a lifelong pursuit for me. I mean, I know other people are they kind of can operate on a lone wolf type of status and they like that. Yet then those same people for some reason are often under some other guys asking for this exact similar type of support.

Right. And I find that just funny. Right, because people want to label things some different things. So they feel it fits into their box as to what they believe and who they are. But ultimately, I feel personally after I don't know, near 29 years in business and in digital careers, that everybody needs partners. Everybody needs mentors and a support system to turn around and look over their shoulder one way or another and say, what do you think? Am I on point here or what? And that will help you trigger some issues one way or another. And it's ultimately a flywheel of benefit for each of those participants. Well, I think that's about getting in and figuring out what we can all work on, right. What is collaborative and certainly Drupal that or provides an enormous opportunity for us there. Right. I mean, it's an amazing thing and something that truly, when we talk about inspiration as far as like between people, it for me was never difficult because I was just like my God, what I mean?

Can you imagine what this is awesome, right? Compared to the .net paradigm and of old anyway, and something that is a non modular paradigm where people do not leverage one another's work on a common pattern. That is darkness in my mind and Drupal and it's modular nature and many other open source projects like it are light. And so to me, like being over on the lights and working for the good side of the force was always ultimately amazing and inspiring. And really, I can't imagine anyone not being excited about doing it and getting involved. And so you don't think that's where it comes down to is really just getting out there, putting yourself out, not being afraid having imposter syndrome as a more senior individual. I mean, we're all failing and making mistakes all the time. And it is not a big deal. It's just really about not worrying about that and trying to be as good as we can. There's a phrase out there good is good enough. And I would tell you that is definitely something that's real in the Drupal world, specifically where we want to find people that are good at what they do, show up, have a positive attitude.

Right. And if all these things are good, it doesn't necessarily matter if they're the best person you've ever seen do immigration and the fastest period or something to that effect. Whatever material operation that you can say my gosh, that's something really the all around or somebody that brings a balanced skill set is going to be appreciated on a more common basis. We certainly are a wonderful source for mentoring in Drupal WordPress, JavaScript, cloud security, letters of various different guides over at Esteemed that you can add value your self to by going to our website and joining our talent network. Certainly Drupal.org this week and having a contribute day, contribute day here for Mid camp. And those are happening at regional camps all around the country, as well as certainly for Drupal.org and Drupal code. We've mentioned Drupal easy. Mike is a fabulous resource. Doesn't necessarily have to be a formal class relationship. He's available often. I'll just jump in and answer questions for people or let them know what might be a good education source for them if it's not his.

So I think that that's also, again, just a wonderful component of our community. We have to be lucky to work with closely coding camps I mean, I think that Drupal is awesome and what we're here for. But I know a number of participants on this talk, as well as many in the community are looking towards what's the next thing? What's the couple Drupal looking like? How do we participate in things like reactive view? You integrate them with Drupal, some of the the static generation tools, Gatsby, etc. These are really important tool. So view and react and node, etc. These all have their own robust communities and events and so forth. So you definitely look over the wall, I suggest, and try to expand yourself beyond your strength and Drupal and you'll you'll benefit from that, right. That will be something that is stand out in your profile. Esteemed. Esteemed we a new app that is in development now, which is somewhat of an extension of our slack channel, which is called Colleagues. And that is something that we are developing with Vyas and Node on AWS as well.

We originally had intended to use Drupal, but really the use case moving towards a pure JavaScript stack really decided it just started to emerge as the better choice. So that's something that appeals to you. Certainly the people that are involved are Drupal veterans. And there is a number of different opportunities on our website that might be helpful to folks from a mentoring and internship perspective. Feel free, anybody who is looking for opportunities in Drupal or related technologies or partner rain or any of that kind of stuff, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn and or email and hit us up on Instagram and all the other social stuff. We are a growing community of over 800 folks, digital professionals between WordPress and Drupal and other, as I mentioned, related technologies. Thanks, everybody. And if there's any questions, let me know.

SPEAKER 1:
Hey, Chris, can you hear me?

CHRIS MCGRATH:
OK.

SPEAKER 1:
I think you hit on a lot of good points because I've found myself I'm kind of between a mentor and a mentee type of thing. But I'm feeling a little bit better as far as finally getting that position and I tried out a couple of positions that like agencies and what you said about is not being afraid of failing. One of them I didn't finish the 90 day probation period. And really discourage me because it was just it wasn't the right fit for me. And I realized that. And that's going to happen because my decision to take that job was probably a little bit rushed. And I got some pressure from them to cut short some other interviews I had, and I shouldn't have done that. So it's just like, OK, so I just went on moved on to the next thing. So, I think get some really good points in there and like about showing up. That's one of the things, because this is something have always done all my life. I get involved, like, for example. When I was younger, I had girlfriend and learned to Western dance.

So I took some community classes in it and got to know some of the people and then I'd show up, but there is a country, Western Swing and dance club. So I started showing up about at that and all the lessons and stuff, and you'd show up and people start noticing you and they say, who is this guy? And that really is lot of times showing up and eventually people will notice that you're always there attending events like this. And I think that's a way to break into the as well.

CHRIS MCGRATH:
I would agree, and I think those were great points and it hit on a couple of things for me, and sometimes memories occur to me after things that people say and I recall honestly, it's funny because I think that no one there's no other way to learn what you did about that opportunity and finding the right fit for yourself or there's no other way one learns to embrace. Everything happens for a reason. Right. Which I think is very material in our world here. Especially not only our world at large, but the Drupal community that, hey, maybe I had some karma to pay some dues or whatever. And I use words like that over at this terrible gig where everything was done wrong, according to my knowledge and history and experience and education. But they paid the bill and that was what I needed at the time. And that you get to call the shots and lead and whatever it might be, or bring a value as a young person, bring a value that the latest to this and they whatever the case may be, then I will tell you the other thing that you mentioned that Rick was showing up was I mean, showing up and participating.

I think it's very important because I make judgments on people and said afterwards after a can't meet up or something like that, I'm sorry, or a local meet up there like, hey Rick, can I talk to you for a second? And this is what we do. And I can maybe use people now and then and and later you may find out that this person is incredibly intelligent responses to that dialogue in the meeting were totally on point, but then they actually have no idea what they have to be doing whatsoever and do not belong in any setting like you. Right. On the other hand that same person was quiet, right. And didn't ever answer a damn thing. But then someone came over and was like, hey, you should take a chance on them. And they are the creator of X and et cetera, et cetera. Their reputation very well. And you're like, OK, you are not sure. And then it turns out so that they there are incredible value. So I think that it's about encouraging quiet people sometimes to raise their hands and maybe they don't have to be full on presenters at events and things like that.

But, to as you say, participate and show up. But I do also think that adding that component of interacting to show what you know. Right. I think we've all seen people that show up Drupal at events and they're like, hey, I'm from marketing. I don't really know anything, so don't worry about me, what I mean? And then there's other people that are not saying anything and we don't know really where they learnt. You can kind of links them up by whatever stereotype you align them with or something like that. And so I think that overall, just as you reminded us for not being afraid, you know what I mean? There's nothing to lose. Let's just talk let's get our thoughts out there, whether we are in command of this subject on every level or just have a random question. I always appreciate those people that aren't afraid to say I'm from marketing. You know what I mean? Like, I don't understand what the heck are you guys saying? But I'd like to learn here. Anybody else questions? Cool. Well, I really appreciate everybody for showing up.

any thing that anyone thinks of offline, let us know. We're very excited to be embarking on a new project that is centered around collaboration. And there's a lot of different some interesting topics that we can delve into there. Rick himself actually is helping us out on the machine learning front. And he's commentator of a couple of Drupal modules that we've machine learning and the recommender API as well. So interesting. Cool stuff. I think Rick probably found out on this call that we're that we're shifting from Drupal on that particular project. But that will matter because it's certainly material one way or another. And in fact, it's just jobs forever (LAUGHS). So it's easier in the end. That was our decision. In fact, we were like, wait a minute, we just got a few drama. Thanks. This is so much lighter and easier than it would be if we use Drupal. So that's just the way.

SPEAKER 1:
Actually, I've shifted not doing the machine, learning libraries and the Drupal computing modules, I started a new module TensorFlow.js (CROSSTALK). So that is and I just finished the Coursera class on TensorFlow.js and that's where I think it's at. So that actually could work very well with the program that you're using.

CHRIS MCGRATH:
I agree. I agree. You're going to do a bunch of learn as well, right? I mean, why not? We have a minute for shameless plugs. So, (CROSSTALK) let's have that date.

SPEAKER 1:
He hasn't set a date yet, so I'll just talk to him about the other day. So...

CHRIS MCGRATH:
Nice. That's exciting. And I will let everybody know here that we do free lunch and learns every Friday. Matthew, you want to log on?

MATHEW:
It really depends upon people's schedule and when we can get them scheduled, but we're trying to do at least two lunch and learns per month with two weeks apart of each one. So the next one we have coming up is JT Leonard talking about Pantone and GitHub and how to work those two together on April 9th. So that should be really informative. And if you haven't already join us on Slack, you can join us in the link below. I posted it in the chat and you'll get more information there when you join the network or follow us on Instagram as well, but also LinkedIn. And we post a lot of updates on LinkedIn as well, including new jobs, training blog posts, all sorts of other good stuff there. So do give us a follow up. It's valuable and we take it seriously. We don't want to give you anything on your news feed that we wouldn't want. So thanks, everybody.

CHRIS MCGRATH:
I think the one thing that you look at is YouTube, where we post a bunch of (CROSSTALK). So, (INAUDIBLE) did a two part series on DDEV, and I think that was highly valuable for folks a lot of our community or straddled between DDEV and Landow. And this gave a thorough introduction to that alternative for Landow users. So, anyway, thanks again, everybody. Really appreciate your showing up. And anybody I can help out there, if you know somebody that is in need of a mentor or looking to get into being one, it is on. Alright.

MATHEW:
Thanks Chris. Thanks everyone.